Abraham Kim:
You can’t talk about the Korean American community without talking about spirituality and faith. For many of us, growing up in an immigrant Korean American family, we probably went to church or was part of some spiritual community. These religious institutions frequently served as the bedrock that grounded our neighborhoods and KA immigrant society.

Abraham Kim:
Not only was the church the spiritual center, but often the center of social life for immigrant families in this foreign land, as well as the community center that provided essential services to struggling homes. I remember in my own life growing up in Los Angeles during the 1980s, my pastor was not just a clergyman but also served a family counsellor, a social worker and a language interpreter among many other jobs. The pastor, the priest, the rector and other clergy leaders served a critical role in the health and welfare of the Korean American immigrant community, but no doubt as a profession, it was a tough and taxing job. I think that is why many people say going into the ministry is a “calling” rather than a profession.

Abraham Kim:
My guest today, Reverend Eugene Cho, as a 1.5-generation Korean American chose the path of serving God and his community as an evangelical pastor. This ministry journey, however, was not easy.

Abraham Kim:
To being with, his first generation parents were not initially enthusiastic about his career choice. Then as a pastor, he and his family went through some dark days including living through poverty and deep uncertainty as he struggled to start a church in Seattle during a major recession. Despite hardships, he and his life partner and wife, Minsun, remained committed to the ministry and their calling to Seattle to establish Quest Church. The Church eventually became one of the most dynamic ministries in the Seattle area.

Abraham Kim:
Eugene later went on to also found a global nonprofit helping people around the world in extreme poverty called One Day’s Wages. He authored two books and most recently, Eugene was named as the new President of the global advocacy group to stop hunger, Bread of the World. He starts his role in July 2020. Before he takes his new role as President for this organization, I’m fortunate to get a moment with Eugene Cho to reflect on his life journey, the Christian faith, humanitarian work, and politics.

Abraham Kim:
Well, we welcome all of you to the Korean American Perspective podcast. I’m so honored to be here with our guest, Eugene Cho. Eugene, who’s currently sitting in Seattle while I’m here in the Washington, D.C. area. Welcome Eugene.

Eugene Cho:
Thank you so much. It’s a joy and pleasure to spend some time with you and the CKA community.

Abraham Kim:
I’ve been looking forward to this conversation and so thrilled to have you. So Eugene, let’s start from the very beginning. I understand you were born in Korea, but your family immigrated to the United States when you were very young. Share with our audience about your immigration experience.

Eugene Cho:
Sure. Well my parents were both born in what is now called North Korea. They have a story of their own where they had to fly down South, experienced a lot of poverty, even persecution being believers or Christians at that time. But, my parents weren’t able to experience some of the luxuries or access to education that I’ve experienced. It was really important for them to have their kids go to school. It’s a very common immigration story as you’re aware of, but I was six years old when we got on an airplane and we immigrated directly to San Francisco, California. And just a couple of interesting parts of that story is that my parents, in their infinite wisdom, decided not to tell me that we were moving. My brothers were aware of this. I’m the youngest of three sons, and so it was a shock when I got on an airplane for the very first time and then to discover at the airport that we were leaving. And thus began our story as Korean Americans.

Abraham Kim:
So from there, you graduated high school and you chose UC Davis to study for college. What did you study at UC Davis?

Eugene Cho:
I double majored. I majored in Psychology and Theater. Psychology to trick my parents into believing that I was going to go pre-Med and then theater because when I was a high school student, I chose to do something that I considered to be the scariest thing in my life. I struggled with stuttering when I was growing up. I also struggled with just fear of people. I think growing up as an immigrant, being bullied, being laughed at because of my accent, because of stuttering, because of numerous things, I was voted the shyest kid in my middle school in sixth grade. And some of the time I got to high school, I was just so afraid of people. But I also realized that I needed to confront that biggest fear. And so I auditioned for a play in high school. It was called Midsummer Night’s Dream by Shakespeare. I was cast as the wall. I think I had two lines. I still believe I was the most compelling wall ever but, as a result of that one audition, it kind of opened up my sense of confidence and I really wanted to explore more about the arts and creativity and public speaking. And so I chose to double major at UC Davis.

Abraham Kim:
So, was your intent to become an actor or a performer?

Eugene Cho:
Yeah, that’s a good question. Maybe, but I found out very quickly in college that while I thought I was good in high school, competition was just radically different at UC Davis. And I think at that level, you begin to realize that in high school you’re trying to give people a variety of parts and opportunities and that wasn’t the same case in college. All along I think I was still intending to become a doctor. You know, my parents had a very, very stern, consistent speech that they gave to my brothers and I ever since we immigrated. M y oldest brother was ordained by my parents to become an engineer. My middle brother was ordained to become a lawyer or a business person, and I was ordained by my parents to become a doctor. So both my brothers did what they were called to do. They were good sons, if you will. And I was planning on becoming a doctor, but that plan changed sometime in college.

Abraham Kim:
So tell me about the change, I imagine that’s when you decided to go into the ministry. Tell me about that journey.

Eugene Cho:
Yeah, right. I mean, I’m still chuckling about it because you know, now it’s such a good feeling to be able to look back at your life and chuckle and laugh a little bit because at that moment, as a third year college student, I still remember calling my parents over the landline phone and telling them that I had decided what I wanted to become and they were shocked that I even said that because the arrangement was that I was supposed to become a doctor and for those who might speak Korean, I basically called and I said, well, I’ve decided what I want to become. And I still remember my mom responding with the answer to my statement. She said a doctor as if there was no room for discussion. And I said no, and then eventually shared with her that I wanted to become a pastor, a minister. And I still remember maybe about three, four minutes of just dead silence over the phone. All I heard was her breathing very heavily. And I was very scared because she was kinda that tiger mom disciplinarian of our family. It was a hard decision but I was so convicted that I graduated college a year early in three years and then eventually made my way across the country to start my theological studies at Princeton Theological Seminary. But there was a lot of pain in that decision because now I don’t blame my parents. But back, then I didn’t quite understand why they couldn’t support me. But I think for them their best expression of love for me was to help me succeed with opportunities that they did not have. And I think their understanding of a pastor didn’t correlate with what they had hoped for me in my life; by being a doctor, it meant being successful. I mean, being able to help others and me being able to have food on the table for our family and onward. And so it’s trained our relationship for a couple years.

Abraham Kim:
When did they come to accept your career choice? Was this many years afterwards?

Eugene Cho:
Oh man, even when I was a student at Princeton seminary, my father would call me every now and then and say, “I forgive you. Even right now, if you decide to become a doctor, I promise you I’ll pay for everything,” but for the first two years, it was very strained and I was kind of on my own and they would check in on me every now and then. But I think eventually over time, I can’t quite identify what year it was, but I think over time they began to realize that it wasn’t just a trend or a fad that I was going through, but it was coming from a very deep place and it was a synthesis of not just spirituality, but a spirituality that really wanted to have a robust impact on culture, on community, on the world. And I think they began to see that and also be inspired by it. I will say that even right now, my parents live about four miles away from me here in Seattle, but even right now, I think there’s still a part of them that still wants me to be a doctor because the way that they described me to their friends is they say, this is Eugene. He’s a pastor, which means he’s a doctor for the human soul, like they can’t give up on that word doctor. And so I find it very comical but also very encouraging because they’re very supportive now and have for many years been a member of the church that I used to pastor.

Abraham Kim:
How about your brothers? Did any of your brothers meet the dreams and hopes of your parents?

Eugene Cho:
They did and I hate them very much. I still have some counseling and therapy that I need to receive. No. All joking aside, you know, I really do admire my brothers. They’ve gone through their ups and downs as well. You could say, if I’m being honest, you could say that our family was like a poster child family to other folks in the Korean community in San Francisco or in the church that we belong to. But I think if you would’ve pealed off the layers of our family, there was woundedness and hardship and pain and financial struggle and the whole experience, I feel like, were realities in our lives. But I was also really inspired to see my brothers endure through so much and yet persevere and pursue some of their dreams, not just for the sake of honoring parents, but I think in their desire to honor their calling, their gifts and passions as well.

Abraham Kim:
So is Princeton Theological Seminary where you met your wife, Minhee?

Eugene Cho:
No. Actually it wasn’t. I met my wife in Korea. My program at Princeton was a three-year program, it was called a Masters of Divinity. And two years into my studies I decided to take some time off and I wanted to go back to Korea. I really hadn’t been back except for one visit when I was in middle school. And I wanted to go back because I think as in my early to mid-twenties, I really wanted to rediscover my identity, my language, my culture, my roots, if you will. And I felt like I was in a better state of mind as a 20 plus year old. And so I decided to go back to Korea, arranged to do an internship at a church in Korea. And it was a phenomenal, life-changing transformative experience, was able to reacquaint myself as I had hoped; with language and culture and some of the family that I had left when we immigrated when I was six years old. I did not envision that I would also meet my wife there because I’m a Korean American. English is my dominant or preferred language. To meet someone in Korea who obviously knew some English, but Korean being her dominant language. And so I met my wife Minhee during the last week that I was in Korea. Finally had the guts to ask her out in my broken best version of my Korean drama voice. And we had five very intense dates on my last week in Korea. And then we began a long-distance relationship right when the internet started to come into the mainstream.

Abraham Kim:
So how did you know that she was the one?

Eugene Cho:
I didn’t. There are some that I’ll meet that use that kind of language or that kind of paradigm. Like I knew this person was the one right when I saw him or her and that wasn’t the case for me or for her. We engaged in a long distance relationship when phone calls were a dollar 20 a minute. It’s shocking to think about that there was a time in our lifetime when we would pay. I still remember the first telephone bill that we received after we started dating. This was when everything was cute and giddy over the phone. We were arguing about who was going to hang up first, things like that. We were praying together on the phone and after we received our first phone bill, collectively, it was over a thousand dollars. Her parents were upset. I was a grad school student. I didn’t have any money. I remember joking with her, “you know what, you pray on your own, I’ll pray on my own. We’re only going to talk twice a week, maybe 10, 15 minutes at a time. And it had to be between 9:00 PM and 1:00 AM,” which was when there was discount calls with AT&T a long time ago. So we wrote letters. I still have hundreds of letters that I sent and hundreds of letters that I received. And so we didn’t know each other. And so there was a lot of time. We were dating for about 12, 13 months of trying to learn and discern not just about who the other person was, but I think if I’m honest, I was still discovering who I was in my twenties as well.

Abraham Kim:
So how did meeting what I’m assuming she was a Korean Korean and then you’re a Korean American, going to Korea to rediscover your identity, you had this amazing experience. I’m wondering how that made you a different person when you came back from Korea?

Eugene Cho:
Yeah, that’s a great question. You know I think we are some of the many experiences that we have and so while I might not necessarily be able to give you a precise systematic answer, “Hey, here’s the five or six things that I was impacted or changed,” I do know that I’m a summation. I’m a synthesis of my immigration, of my years in San Francisco and then my experience for about two years, going back to my twenties to again reacquaint myself with culture and language and family. It was very transformative. But I think a couple things do come to mind when I think about how I was impacted by my time there. I think it was just more of a sense of peace and joy about my identity as a Korean American when I was growing up in the States. One of the most painful comments or basically slurs, if you will, that I heard was hearing from people, “go back home,” and that just always confused me because no matter what I did or how much I accomplished, no matter how well I did in school, I realized that for many people I would never be seen or accepted as truly American. And then in middle school I did actually go back to Korea and I was so excited to go back. But what was so shocking and caused great confusion was when I went back to Korea thinking I’m finally home. I actually heard that exact same statement from native Koreans to “go back home”. So when I came back, middle school and high school were very turbulent, confusing, angry years for me. I can’t speak for other Korean Americans and their immigration story, but I know for myself there were some really dark, confusing, painful times. And I really began to ask myself about identity. Like who am I, where do I fit, what do I belong? And so I think in my twenties, a little more mature to be able to go back. I think I began to get a sense of peace and joy about my identity as a Korean American, that I didn’t see that as a deficiency. But I really saw that as a gift to be able to see the beauty and difficulties of both cultures and to have the ability to synthesize the good of both cultures by cultural identity as a Korean American. And then certainly not just identity, but things of that culture. I began to become more reacquainted with language, with cultural customs that I had forgotten. And it was actually very emotional to the point that even now, whenever I fly back to Korea and I go back to Korea once or twice a year just as I did in middle school and in my early twenties I always cry when I land. There’s just something about landing and there’s a word that I’m sure you’re familiar with, but for those that might not quite know this word, it’s the word “go-yang”, which means “hometown”. And there’s just something about the fact that as a Korean American, there is a connectedness and rootedness with the land of Korea that will never be taken away from me.

Abraham Kim:
Yeah. I mean, as I’m listening to you, we feel a part of our homeland, where the home of our parents, our home, Korea, and also we feel home here as well, but not fully 100% part of each. And so we’re almost living in a third culture, right? Cause we’re, like you said, a hybrid. And so I have heard some people call it, you know, we’re living in the kimchi taco culture, right? Because it’s a fusion of different kinds of culture, you know, the best and sometimes not the best of things from both cultures, but yet it’s a part of us and we’re blended together. So, I think your feelings are very widely shared among folks in our community. So you, so you graduated from Princeton Seminary in 1997 and I imagine you got married soon after that, correct?

Eugene Cho:
That’s right. So I married my wife in the middle of, or nearly near the end of my seminary years and I got married in Korea and 1997, came back and by that time I was done with my studies, but I stayed for a few months to wrap up and walk for graduation. Just one thing that I’ll just say about graduation is one of my biggest regrets as a son, as a child of my parents is that because I graduated college early and because there was some strain in my relationship with my parents, I decided not to walk during college graduation. And to this day, it’s one of my big regrets because I was so selfish, I didn’t realize how much that meant for my parents. And so when I chose not to graduate, you rob them of the joy of seeing their youngest son go through graduation. And so when I graduated from Princeton, I was done by then. I didn’t have to stick around, but it was because I really wanted to give them the opportunity to come to Princeton to attend the graduation ceremony and are very beautiful cathedral. Shortly after that, my wife and I got into a car with a few belongings that we had, drove cross country back to the West coast, into the Pacific Northwest, to Seattle, Washington.

Abraham Kim:
Why did you choose, Seattle, Washington? Because in 2001 you founded your church, Quest Church and you chose Seattle, Washington, not back to San Francisco. Why did you choose Seattle as a location?

Eugene Cho:
I wonder if Sleepless In Seattle had an impact with my decision. I have no idea. I really don’t quite know. I mean, as a pastor, and I know not everyone in the audience might understand when I talk about spirituality, but I’d like to think that we pray and got some sort of a direction in our relationship with God. But I don’t quite know, to be honest with you, I didn’t feel like going back to San Francisco was an option because I made a lot of mistakes during those angry, confusing years that I mentioned earlier. We don’t have to go into the details, but I made a lot of poor decisions and I didn’t think that I could go back to San Francisco to do ministry there because of those decisions. But there was just something I think about Seattle culture. Seattle is known for its kind of hipster-ness. it’s grungy-ness, it’s anti-establishment sense, if you will. It’s a hybrid of lots of different things. But there was an opportunity to come to Seattle and to be a part of an English ministry at a Korean American church. And so we went to the suburbs and we started an EM, an English ministry at a Korean American Church and did that for three years. It was one of the fastest growing churches in the West coast. But after three years, as much as we tried, we realized that this church was beautiful. The English ministry is beautiful, it’s still doing and going very, very well. But I realized that in the long run what I wanted to be a part of as a Korean American who fully embraces and has peace and joy in my identity, that I also wanted to be a part, a catalyst and becoming part of a multi-ethnic, multicultural church that really cared about not just identity, and justice issues that impacted Korean Americans, but also impacted the larger culture as well. And that’s why we started and founded Quest Church in 2001.

Abraham Kim:
I imagine that was not an easy decision because I recall you telling stories about starting that church and really, it was a difficult time for you during the initial months/year, I imagine, of starting a new church. Tell me about that period of time.

Eugene Cho:
No, it was really challenging and it was humbling. Maybe like others, I had a plan, I had an Excel sheet of what I wanted to do. I had a formula, I had people and connections and network and for whatever reason, nearly every single one of the hopes and plans that we had for the church in the beginning just didn’t come to fruition. The market crashed at that time. People that were wanting to give and invest in our church no longer could do it. And the next thing I knew, I realized that I needed to get a job. I had left our previous church and found out very quickly that a masters of divinity degree was kind of useless to the larger society. People didn’t quite know what to do with me. I couldn’t get a job at burger King, McDonald’s, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Starbucks. And it was a challenging time. Eventually my wife and I, we were on food stamps here in Seattle. We were participating in a program called WIC, Women, Infants and Children, which is a safety net for those who are going through difficult times. We were going through state insurance programs again, which we’re really grateful for. That’s part of our story and I’m sure we’ll get to it later. But what’s led me to kind of the work that I’m doing right now? Um, so for about a year I finally landed a job and I was working as a janitor at a Barnes and noble store in a suburb in Seattle. And then it was a very difficult time, I think had you and I been having this podcast at that time it, would have been a very angry, very cynical conversation. But as I look back now, I learned a lot; learned a lot about character, about perseverance, about tenacity, and it’s been, again, one of those marker experiences that continues to shape my life even today.

Abraham Kim:
You must’ve had perhaps some regret as well, wondering why. Did you ever question God in terms of, was this the right path that you’re supposed to take? Was there any self-doubt during that period for you?

Eugene Cho:
Oh, absolutely. When I worked as a janitor, I was there from six to nine in the morning at about a 40,000 square foot bookstore. And I’m there by myself along with maybe one manager and two employee, it’s that early in the morning? And what else do you do when you’re vacuuming, cleaning toilets, dusting except to wrestle with God. I was angry. I had some choice words. I said some things I probably can’t say for this distinguished podcast, but it was good and honest and real and vulnerable. But yes, there were moments when I doubted not only God, but doubted, “Am I making the right decision?” During this time, you know, both our respective parents on both sides of our family question the wisdom in planting a new church while my wife was pregnant with our second child and it was a very difficult time for sure. There’s no doubt about it. But I’m again, really grateful for the handful of friends that came along, grateful for our parents that despite some of the questions or the, “I told you so,” still remained supportive. And I’m grateful for the fact that my wife, even though we never envisioned being on food stamps during that time, we learned our marriage got even closer and tighter as a result of the circumstances that we were going through.

Abraham Kim:
You implied that this experience during these difficult couple of years, um, really shaped you as you looked ahead to what was to come and that was the founding a One Day’s Wages, a grassroots organization and movement to fight extreme global poverty. Tell me about that journey. How did you establish this organization?

Eugene Cho:
You know, for me as a Christian, as a Christ follower, I really care not just about people going to church or attending services, but more importantly, I really care about the ethics about the compassion, mercy and justice that I believe is embodied in the person and the message of Jesus Christ. And again, I am not suggesting I try to use this platform to preach to people by any means. But I think if there is a common ground for people of different faiths and views to gather together around, it’s about what does it mean to be a good neighbor. And as I really began to explore what it meant, what it means to be a good neighbor, I was so captivated by Jesus, compassion, and conviction about those who are particularly marginalized and vulnerable in culture and society, the orphans, the widows, women, children and it continues onward. And so as I began to explore that and I began to explore more about the history of Christianity in Korea, even though it’s not perfect, I began to realize how early on it was these Christian missionaries that would partner with indigenous Korean leaders to do beautiful, compassionate, merciful, [and] just things in Korean culture and society. Establish hospitals and orphanages and schools and be on the streets, the protest, the illegal occupation of Japan and the list goes on. And then to learn more about my personal family story, to learn about my parents and their experience with hunger and refugee camps and what have you. I don’t know if I shared this story with you but you know, my father just two years ago, shared with me for the very first time, he’s 84 now that when he was 82 years old, he finally shared with me that he had spent some months at a refugee camp, separated from his family during the time of the Korean war. And when I asked him why he had never shared that story with me, he quibbled a little bit, he was very emotional and he just shared, some things are just too emotional and traumatic to share. And so I think for me, my point, it’s just learning more about what they went through. Having to pull out grass on occasion from the ground to eat it because they were just so hungry and dealing with hunger pangs. I feel that much has been given to our family and because of my faith, I’m inspired to give back. And I want to continue to give back and I want to inspire others to not just think about our own success, our own platforms, but how again, we give voice and agency and empowerment to others.

Abraham Kim:
So the concept of One Day’s Wages is unique and rather risky. It’s 100% donations, I guess minus as credit card fees goes toward particular charities that are curated and vetted by the One Day’s Wages organization. Why did you pick this kind of a platform? Was there an inspiration behind this or what drove you to take this kind of a model?

Eugene Cho:
Sure. Well, you know, One Day’s Wages, we started this about almost 11 years ago. I was on a trip to Myanmar, otherwise known as Burma and I was on this trip, and along with some other leaders, we wanted to learn to connect some thoughts with the research that I was doing for some writing projects. And there’s something about seeing certain things in the flesh in real time with your own eyes. And I was visiting a makeshift classroom in the jungles in Burma. And there was a group of ethnic people called the Karen people that were fleeing away jungle to jungle, because they were fleeing away from this military government that was basically there to eradicate them. And when I was at this particular jungle, I visited a makeshift classroom and in this classroom I learned that teachers of these classrooms teaching first to fifth graders, their income, their salary was 40 US dollars. And it wasn’t per day, it wasn’t per week, it wasn’t per month, it was per year. That experience just really rocked my world. And then to be able to see people that have been impacted by war or by landmines and what have you. So we came back from this experience and my wife and I decided to discuss and pray and just kind of imagine how could we participate, how could we help in some way or the other? And again, as people of faith, we spend some time in prayer and we were convicted to give up a year’s wages. And back then, you know, we were a one income family. As a pastor I was making $68,000 a year. We didn’t have that lying around in a bank or under our mattress. And so we engaged in a three year journey, a three year process of saving as much as we could of simplifying our lives and settling things that we didn’t need. And during this time, we felt like we were inspired by this idea called One Day’s Wages and we asked friends and family, that as we gave one year’s wages, would you consider joining us, by giving one day’s wages at least once a year, maybe once a month or once a quarter and amazingly hundreds and then eventually thousands of people around the world decided to join in. Now, the reason why we committed to this model of a hundred percent is because we know that we live in a world today where people are increasingly skeptical and cynical about charities, about philanthropy, about organizations. I think some of it is legitimate and others, it’s just because we’re living in a more hyper cynical culture. And we wanted to remove that from the formula. And we wanted to just tell people that when you decide to give, 100% minus credit card fees, go directly into carefully vetted projects or specific projects that you can pick on our websites. So for me as an Executive Director, part of my job is to fundraise for our operations and administration. And then we host one event every single year. Our One Day’s Wages Gala, where our Seattle supporters really rally around and help underwrite our operation the entire year.

Abraham Kim:
If running a nonprofit like One Day’s Wages wasn’t enough. You are also a prolific writer and you’ve written two books. The first one is called Overrated. Are we more in love with the idea of changing the world and actually changing the world? What inspired you to write this book?

Eugene Cho:
You know, that book is a confession. It’s not a book at all about an expert or a guru talking about change. It’s really a confession that I share about how it was so tempting for me to be enamored by wanting to do good things, good ideas, good intentions, good words, good sermons, good speeches. But I realized that my pushback was when there was a cost to me, when there was actually sacrifices that I needed to make in my life. And I think if we’re honest, that can be a part of the temptation, the seduction of our world today where we can be obsessed by how we appear to other people. I think social media is a classic example of being more concerned by how we appear to other people. And so mostly, nearly every single person that I meet wants to do something to make their communities and their cities and their nation and the world a better place to live. We should affirm it, but we should also name that there are challenges, there’s a cost to pursuing those things. And so that both seeks to name some of those things and how we can push through and be tenacious in our pursuits.

Abraham Kim:
So, what do you propose or recommend people who want to push through? What are some things that we should be doing?

Eugene Cho:
No, a couple things that I can just share. You know, there is obviously a lot more that I write about in the book, but a couple things that I would just share from the get go is that we can never do it alone. The idea of the lone ranger, the whole hero complex, the white savior or the Asian savior complex, we can’t do it alone. There’s something beautiful and compelling about partnering and collaborating with other people. I think CKA is a beautiful example of that. It’s this idea that is an Island to themselves while you and I, Abe, are individuals, we have our unique stories when we collaborate and pull together and come together and that CKA comes together with other women and men in different seasons of their lives. College students and younger professionals and people that have been around the block a few times. We can accomplish so much more by mutual encouragement, by pulling in our resources, our think tanking, our ideation and the list goes on. That will be one. I think the second thing that I would just share for the sake of this podcast is we need to go deep in our knowledge about something. Sometimes I feel like our news cycle moves so quickly that before you know it, people move on from one epidemic or one concern or one disaster to another. And we don’t give ourselves enough time to learn and to dig in and to kind of wrestle with the complexities and nuances of the various challenges that confront our world. And so there’s something about if we care about something, we owe it to ourselves, the people that we’re wanting to empower and come alongside and learn from, and we also owe it to that subject to become an expert on that subject, we might not necessarily become PhDs. I think we need to really dig in. So those are the two things that I would just share. In addition to numerous other things I share in the book.

Abraham Kim:
Do you feel like this first book was, in some ways, your second book is a followup to this book, or you wrote a second book a couple of years later called “Thou Shall Not Be a Jerk, a Christian’s Guide to Engage in Politics,” it seems absolutely inappropriate book given the time we live in, but a rather risky book, too, I would say, to write in these times. Why did you write this book? Was this a followup from the last book or is this something that you complete, had something that you wanted to write about?

Eugene Cho:
I think it’s somewhat connected and it’s also a standalone book, but I mean, it’s connected in the sense that it flows from, the authenticity of my imperfect story in life. You know, I think the books that I write, the talks that I give, I want it to be an authentic expression of my imperfect life. And this certainly is it when you ask the question, why did I write this book? I could say jokingly, I’m a masochist. I love pain because I’ve gotten my share of criticism, left and right from lots of people. You know, I recently wrote or did an interview with the Washington post about President Trump’s usage of the terminology “Chinese Virus,” I mean that’s probably a different podcast in itself, but I got thousands of emails and thousands of comments on that column and on my Twitter feed and such. But it’s really because now I want to be able to contribute to a more healthy, a more flourishing, a more, just a more compassionate and then certainly as a Christian, a culture that more reflects the hearts and character of Jesus Christ. Now, not everybody might agree with my views or thoughts and that’s okay. But as you and I discussed at a meeting a few months ago, we talked about how, how challenging it is and it’s not just people bringing their respective views together, but there’s a loss of civility, a loss or respect, a loss of just basic human decency and kindness. And as a result, it is causing a great divide and polarization in our culture, in our nation. And really all around the world.

Abraham Kim:
Do you have any recommendations or suggestions if some heads of state came to you and said, you know, “Pastor Cho, we want to change the culture. What would you, what would you suggest people, what would you advise these leaders to do?

Eugene Cho:
Right. You know, easier said than done. And I say this in the book. I write 10 commandments, one of them is “Thou Shall not be a Jerk”. There’s 10 “Thou Shall-whatever” and I go through a 10 of these things and I will admit, easier said than done. But over my years I’ve had conversations with and sometimes meals with our city mayors, our city council, with governors. I’ve had three opportunities to go to the White House to meet with Presidents in past administrations. It’s something that I really care about because I believe that politics matter. Sometimes there are some people, whether they’re Christian or not, I feel like politics is too messy. It doesn’t matter. And I would love to take this moment to tell anyone who’s listening politics matter because they inform policies that impact human people and oftentimes people that are kind of on the margins, people that are forgotten, people that might not have their voice heard in the larger wire of a noisy culture. So a couple of suggestions that I would share and hopefully I love to encourage people to check out this book. But two things come to mind. Number one would be that I think we’ve lost the art of listening. I know it’s not rocket science, but the art of listening even to those who may have different views than we do. In the book, I talk about the story of a movement called MADA, which stands for Make America Dinner Again. And coincidentally, two Asian American women in the Bay Area was so distraught by the results of the last presidential election that after their emotions subsided, they were just confused and they wanted to have a meal with some other friends that voted for President Trump. And to their credit, they realized that as they were examining themselves and their social circles, they realize they didn’t know a single that voted for President Trump. And in some ways, I think that’s part of the challenge of our world is that we’re basically placing ourselves in silos, in echo chambers where we’re surrounding ourselves with people that look like us, think like us, feel like us worship like us, and vote like us. So when we’re talking about loving our neighbors or listening to our neighbors, it’s kind of an inaccurate description. And so they decided to invite through social media, share their story and said, would you be willing if you voted for President Trump, have dinner with us, we’ll gather people of different circles, different backgrounds, we’ll all bring a plate, a dish to share and let’s just talk about our views on different perspectives. And that has spurred a global movement. There’s MADA chapters all around the country. And contextually, this has also changed in other places around the world. I went to my local Seattle, Make America Dinner Again, a chapter for a dinner, and it was intense. It was hard. It was challenging. We didn’t solve anything and the thing we didn’t solve gun control or resolve the national debt budget. But I think there’s something about a commitment to say, I want to be able to listen to you and to have a better perspective where someone else is coming from. I think the other one is that my book isn’t a license for us to be passive, to be soft, to be deferential. It means that while we’re still respectful and gracious and civil, we should still contend for convictions and passions that really matter to us, especially as they deal with those within our largest society who are often forgotten or not seen.

Abraham Kim:
I want to shift gears a little bit here and back to your life. After being with your church for 17 years in September, 2018, you did decide to step down from Quest Church and there was this immediate coverage around this. Tell me about that journey and how you came to that decision.

Eugene Cho:
One of the hardest decisions of my life. We love our church. My wife and I having planted that church in the year 2000. We labored sweat and tears for 18 years. Our children were born at this church. It’s probably not the best analogy, Quest Church felt like a fourth baby to us, so it was a really hard decision. But the two things that factored into our thought and our decision making is that my wife and I always envisioned that when a time came and if a time came that we wanted it to be done, when the church was at its healthiest, when it was experiencing as most flourishing as a community. And we felt this was the right time. A few years ago, we helped the church move into the largest Protestant building, finished the capital campaign. There was no debt and amazing staff, one of the largest and influential churches in Seattle. And so we felt really encouraged by the momentum and the things that were going on. But the second thing that I realized, and this was hard for me to admit, but I realized that I was holding the church back. I was, um, scattered in so many places. I was writing, I was speaking, I was encouraging leaders around the world. I was traveling a lot. I was engaged with one day’s wages and I realized that I was holding the church back and decided to fire myself. That was really the reason why we made that decision. There was some risk involved because we have two kids that are in college right now, we’d have to give up a full time job. But we also sensed that in the next chapter, I’m not quite sure what that was going to be because we had no idea. But we felt like God was calling us, trusting him and to enter into this new chapter, through a new season with open hands.

Abraham Kim:
So from this, how important do you think it is for leaders to learn how to step down or step away? Is there a lesson for leaders that you would like to encourage?

Eugene Cho:
You know, there is, and I think especially in today’s world, there’s a lot of emphasis on starting a lot of emphasis on entrepreneurial-ism. And that’s good because clearly, I think we have a high value for these kinds of attributes and qualities. But over the years I’ve been a leader, and a pastor ,and an entrepreneur. Abe, you know, a part of my story is I’ve started lots of different things. I’ve started churches, I’ve started coffee shops and nonprofit music venues. I’ve started at One Day’s Wages. So I’ve been around many conversations that deal with starting an entrepreneurial-ism and I realized that there just hasn’t been a lot of conversations around ending well. And then again, positioning well and I would say the, “how we end”, leaves such a Mark on the whole journey as well. And so we want to make sure that we’re having conversations in our friendships. We should be having conversations in CKA because of the fact that we know that in our lifetime there’s going to be numerous transitions and chapters that we’ll be writing in our life. And so I think simply the lesson is, um, and well ends in this time of health and flourishing, not just for the company or the organization that you’re a part of, but even on a personal basis that we’re experiencing these things in our own lives.

Abraham Kim:
Yeah, I mean it’s part of that legacy as well. You’re leaving a legacy as well as passing the baton knowing that any organization or any mission is much larger than any single individual, right? And so it’s an important lesson and just through your example, I’m sure many other leaders were encouraged by it. But a few years after, you are now moving into a new transition into your life, into your new role as the President CEO Bread For The World. Tell me about that journey. How did that come about? Did you ever imagine that you would be running another organization like this?

Eugene Cho:
No, I did not. I was envisioning continuing to do One Day’s Wages, which is something that I will continue to do, but I’ve really settled into a really kind of a nice group now. I’ve been traveling a lot, encouraging leaders around the world, speaking in numerous places. I’ve also been enjoying the outdoors and hiking and fishing and things of that nature. Never imagined that I would be leaving Seattle. But just recently, I made a decision to accept an invitation to become the President CEO of a Christian advocacy organization based in Washington, DC. So we’ll be neighbors, shortly, very soon once we get to travel again and Bread For The World is probably one of the more influential Christian advocacy organizations in the country. And it’s a collective Christian voice that seeks to urge our nation’s lawmakers to look at policies and programs and structures to be more merciful, compassionate, empowering, more dignifying for those who are poor and hungry and vulnerable in our nation and around the world. And so for me, my wife, we felt like in our next big chapter, we want it to double down on our convictions about using our gifts, our voices, our lives to be a megaphone for the issues that impact the poor and hungry. And so we’ll continue to do that with One Day’s Wages through direct relief. And then with Bread For The World, as we become advocates for the poor and hungry.

Abraham Kim:
This role is somewhat different from any of the roles that you’ve had. Now you’re actually dealing with decision makers, policy makers, and trying to persuade them. They’re now your constituents. I’m wondering, what prepared you for this role?

Eugene Cho:
Yeah, that’s a great question. And you know, honestly there are lots of new muscles that I’m going to have to learn as a result of this new position. Things that deal with policies, things that deal just today. I can give you a glimpse, a snapshot of the meetings that I’ve had today. We’ve had meetings dealing with the IMF about debt relief. We’ve had meetings dealing with snap programs, about EBT, electronic benefits programs. We’ve had conversations today about how our nation and the world is responding to COVID-19 and how we can be, again, advocating for different programs and communities. It has been overwhelming and so in some ways, I would say that while my past has been central to my preparation, there’s also lots more that I’ll need to learn as well. But a couple of things, when I look back on my life, I again think about my experience; stretching myself as a theater major. I look back now as someone that’s struggled with stuttering and public speaking. That has helped prepare me as a pastor and theologian. To be able to, again, learn from the scriptures, from the Bible because we’re a Christian organization, and to be able to give people a feel, a framework about the why we should care about certain things. As a pastor that has been ministering to the needs of the real holistic needs of people, that has prepared me to again, think about how I can connect with those who are poor and hungry around our world and nation. And certainly the work of One Day’s Wages is a direct connection. What will be new is just to be able to, again, meet with lawmakers, congressmen and congresswomen, senators, on the occasion, to have meetings with representatives of the administration. And so certainly for those who are listening to this, any practical advice, but even prayers would be very much appreciated.

Abraham Kim:
I have a final couple of questions. You’ve been very generous with your time. I’m wondering if you have any role models. I imagine you’ll say you referenced Jesus Christ a number of times, but aside from Jesus Christ, do you have other role models that that you follow?

Eugene Cho:
Sure. You know, I know this sounds like a trite answer, but I think it’s really for me to name them and then to share why. And I want to just compose myself so that I don’t get too emotional and start crying, less you become, develop a reputation of being a Barbara Walters. I want to be careful. I would say my mom and dad are foremost my most influential role models in my life. Having gone from a stage in my teenage years where they were the villains, my nemesis, my enemies who I blame for my identity struggles and problems, and at a later more mature age to look back and just be absolutely compelled by their tenacity, their commitment, their perseverance, their passion, their love for their children. I don’t think I could ever articulate adequately how much they’ve inspired me in my life. So that would be two of the most significant role models. Two more for the sake of time, I’ll just share is obviously Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is someone that inspires me. Yes, partly because he was a pastor. Yes, because he was a Christian. But I think again, it was just this conviction that our space is not something that we engage in for a 90 minutes service on a Sunday. It’s not something that we attend, but it’s how we exist, how we live, how we engage, how we seek to use our views, our faith, to especially love our neighbors, including, and especially those who are particularly vulnerable. And the last person that I’ll share is someone that you know, I had the privilege of writing about in my latest book, Thou Shall Not Be a Jerk. It’s tragic that her life was cut so short, but Yu Kwan Sun is a Korean activist that was very prominent in the March 1st Movement against, at that time, the Imperial Japanese colonial rule of Korea. And I didn’t know about her story when I was young, but as I’ve grown in my years more connected to my identity and my Koreanness, that pride and joy, not in a nationalistic way, but in a healthy, patriotic way, I’ve come to learn more about her story. And she was also a believer, a Christian who was able to synthesize yes, her faith and then her convictions about compassion and justice. And I am just so compelled by this young woman. I think she was only 17 or 18 years old when she was martyred while she was in jail. But this young woman that many of us probably don’t know about, particularly Korean Americans, she was one of the most pivotal, influential figures in the liberation of Korea. And so she’s one of my role models as well.

Abraham Kim:
Well, final question. I think this is a great segue after your sharing of these inspirational stories. I mean, if you could talk to your 19 or 20 year old self, what would you advise the young Eugene Cho?

Eugene Cho:
Oh, man. Well, I would first say, “Dear 18-year-old Eugene, get over it. You’re not going to become an NBA player. That will be one. I was so set on becoming the first Asian American NBA player, didn’t happen,”. It stopped when I stopped growing at 5″6 and a half. But I would say just earnestly more seriously. I think what I would say, especially now, I’m turning 50 years old in a couple of months. I would say, I would tell you, Eugene, that it’s a marathon. And to be prepared to run a marathon. I think sometimes when I was younger, I was just so set on sprinting as hard as I could. I didn’t have a perspective, any depth that went beyond me, myself and I. When your perspective about something that lasted longer than what I was going through, and I realized that if it’s a marathon, there’s just a series of hundreds and thousands of micro transitions and then numerous major transitions, and I would just tell a younger version of myself to get ready to run the marathon that the entire race matters. That’s what I would say to a younger version of myself.

Abraham Kim:
Well, thank you very much Eugene for your time and we will certainly watch very earnestly and root for you as you start your new chapter at the organization, Bread For The World. Thank you for sharing your life and your wisdom with us.

Eugene Cho:
Thank you very much and I look forward to hopefully meeting with others in the CKA community in the years to come.

Abraham Kim:
Well, we look forward to having you in our community. Thank you very much.

Abraham Kim:
I hope you enjoyed this interview with Eugene Cho about his life, his ministry and his perspectives about navigating faith and politics.

Abraham Kim:
Thank you again for listening to this episode of the Korean American Perspectives podcast. Please subscribe to our podcast and visit our website at councilka.org. Plus, if you like what you are hearing, please give us a five star on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast.

Abraham Kim:
Special Thanks to our faithful podcast producer, Kevin Koo, who is the OZ behind the curtain masterminding the technical aspects of this show and making me sound like a rock star. Thanks Kevin!

Abraham Kim:
Please join us next week again for another exciting and wonderful episode of the Korean American Perspective Podcast.